Looks like I will be trying out Session messenger (getsession.org). It's a fork of with many of the same advantages, in particular unproblematic setup. It appears to have made more sensible decisions in some areas however - accounts not bound to phone numbers, random recovery codes etc.

One has to share a lengthy Session ID before communicating with someone however.

Oh, and did I mention that one can create an account from the desktop client without hacking the app?

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Me trying out Session messenger came to an abrupt end - I'm uninstalling it and recommend that everybody does the same. People pointed out the app's connections to the alt-right scene which I could sadly confirm. So I don't want to contribute to them washing the stains away.

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This German-language video shows Loki Network's main developer (Jeff/majestrate) pitch his baby on 8chan and being celebrated by the alt-right for it (at 27:46). For reference, Loki Network is the foundation of Session and developed by the same startup. media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10639-let_

Later 8chan was deplatformed and came back on Loki Network. The article calls it "inadvertent help" but it appears to be everything but that. The CEO is cited with the words "some Loki staff may have advised 8kun administrators 'to a limited extent'."


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I looked up Jeff's online presences. On Twitter he says "no fun allowed" but on his Pleroma instance he openly posts and links to racist and sexist content. He seems to be tightly embedded in the alt-right scene. So - yes, it all checks out.

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And now Jeff's crowd discovered my Mastodon account. So they predictably defend him as merely "shitposting" and having a "dark humor." And either way, Jeff never pitched Loki Network to 8chan. And even if he did, what does that have to do with Session? Yeah, sure...

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Yet somehow his "dark humor" universally unloads on non-white people and women (never mind "Communists", seems to be a popular obsession in the US). And some anonymous pitched his newly developed Loki Network on 8chan, collecting some applause for creative protocol naming.

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And - yes, Loki Network is not the same as Session. But they are both developed by the same startup and the former is the foundation of the latter. And if that startup "tolerates" people with racist and sexist views, we know the toxic swamps that result from that.

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@WPalant Bummer. Had Session high on my to-try list.

@fschaap Yes, I actually liked the app. On Twitter Kee Jefferys (CTO of Session) is saying that he wasn't aware of this and will look into it. Which can mean three outcomes:

1. Jeff leaves.
2. Kee Jefferys leaves.
3. Nothing happens and the whole thing is swept under the carpet.


@WPalant Thanks. Guess we'll have to keep an eye on that then. Hard question though... what if someone of questionable morals invented faster than light travel, would we choose to not use the invention? Technology is not neutral, that we know, but what if you can still put it to good use? Or should the project be forked to be used in good conscience? And would you then want to maintain interoperability?

@fschaap What if that someone invented FTL travel with the explicit intention of invading already inhabited worlds?

@WPalant Considering the state of the world, plenty of those ships would be leaving. Should we then not use FTL catch up with those ships and prevent them from invading already inhabited worlds?

@fschaap @WPalant I Think the analogy should be more like what FTL was developed so that it was dependent harvesting the hearts from unwilling slaves... In that case if the technology could be evolved to use *artificial hearts* instead then we could use it to chase them to prevent it.

@whonose123 @fschaap Either way, what we have here are multiple FTL drives developed - some working better than others and one developed by a creep with sinister intentions. It's really a no-brainer, we can stay clear of the creep and look at the other ones. One of them is bound to work out.

Neat @jeff, you can read a mirror of his observations here too, with responses and answers.
@whonose123 @fschaap sup'all.
Hopefully you have the mental aptitude to separate shitposting on a personal account and actually treating infosec seriously.
t. another real ph.d cryptographer with dark dark humor😜
@WPalant @fschaap let's make a poll to decide the fate of this:
@hector @WPalant @fschaap my only sin is not being polite about not wanting to join their cult. i am exmormon so i know a cult when i see it.

@fschaap even if what @WPalant said about jeff was somehow true, he still has no involvement in session, just lokinet

@WPalant This is a real shame, I was going to give it a run myself, but I won't now.

@WPalant every time i hear @jeff and "alt-right" in the same sentence, i bust out laughing at how absurd it is, because ive been around him for years and he's the furthest one can be away from that shit. but go ahead, pretend youre an expert on his character, i'll get popcorn
> @jeff's Crowd
LMAO, nvm, your opinion is cliquish.
> if that startup "tolerates" people with racist and sexist views, we know the toxic swamps that result from that.
When you have a technical opinion, I'll read it. For now, you don't seem to actually give a fuck about people's lives depending on privacy and encryption.
@whonose123 @leip4Ier Are you two more clowns in security theatre or something?
@WPalant can you leave twitter already instead of xposting all your drivel in two places, one is bad enough
@WPalant he is in no way involved with pitching lokinet to 8chan
@WPalant posting on 8chan about it and going to 8chan's admins are two entirely separate things, i dont know what youre on about
@WPalant @jeff since we're taking blows at people's characters and bringing up tangential details, let's talk about how you make deals with advertising companies despite claiming to provide an adblocker extension for browsers. seems dishonest to people who want an ad-free internet experience, right?

gorhill owned your ass fam
@WPalant @jeff 8chan fucking sucks, so does gab, because theyre all run by morons who couldnt stay true to their primary goals: freedom of speech. torba became greedy, copypaste let the heat get to him. im sure you can relate since youre a sellout yourself.
@WPalant @wowaname because that site that screen cap is from is in fact endchan.
@jeff Here's the faggot that libeled you:
Get your dad to hire a German lawyer, someone's getting sued:
@WPalant Nächstes Mal, seien Sie wirklich vorsichtig, was Sie öffentlich online sagen, jeder kann jeder in diesen Tagen "「abgesagt」 werden.
@jeff i assumed @WPalant wouldnt stoop to outright lies, so i didnt question the screenshot, but turns out i should have asked for a link to the thread in question
@jeff not like it matters because @WPalant will act like he doesnt see our replies anymore and carry on with propagandising his followers with decreasingly logical rhetoric

tl;dr i shouldnt waste time on this dumbass

@lucky @WPalant @wowaname bards or something? Idk I think this guy is retarded. Jeff looks like some hispanic mutt anyway.

@lucky @WPalant he claims that this is a screenshot of 8chan and that other imageboards dont exist and look exactly the same, or something

@wowaname @WPalant It wouldn’t matter even if it was 8chan. He is implying that anybody who uses free-speech platforms that tolerate all non-illegal speech are alt-right. This is provably incorrect UNLESS you define alt-right as being people who use such platforms.

@lucky @wowaname @WPalant 8chan is a cesspool of shit. Nothing right wing or conservative about it anyway. It is more suited for fags and trannys.

@wretch @WPalant @wowaname That’s a statement on site quality, and I would generally agree for it from 2017 onwards, maybe even 2016. The post shown is form 2018 so whatever. But the issue here is trying to cancel someone based on faulty logic. Someone who seems to be involved with making useful software.

@lucky @wretch

@WPalant is a sellout and a profiteer, that tells you all you need to know about his character.

@WPalant Hi, I gave that talk and was made aware of your thread. Said post about Lokinet I showed a screeenshot of was indeed made on Endchan. Endchan had also adopted Lokinet way before 8kun was (re)launched.

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